great-uncle vs. grand-uncle

[walkitout]

Again, _stumbled_ over this. Great-uncle is the one R. and I are familiar with, however, it's pretty trivial to find genealogical types online who are prepared to start a fight in favor of grand uncle. Those same types are prepared to concede that _great_ uncle is more commonly used -- but not that that is a valid argument in its favor. For what little it is worth, wikipedia asserts equivalency between the two terms and that neither is more correct. They both have age in their favor and it is possible that grand uncle is older than great uncle. One should never attempt to apply logic to language, of course.

My question is not simple to convey. Has the "genealogical community" such as it is, decided that grand-uncle is preferred and, if so, is there a stated basis for the claim? Because if this comes down to, well, one is in the OED from the 1470s and the other doesn't show up until a century later, that's a sillier argument that which-one-is-more-commonly-used. I am _not_ asking which one is correct. That's a question based on a false premise (that there is an over-arching frame which could provide a context for an answer).

I would treat this as an indication:

http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~randyj2222/gendictg.html

"GRAND UNCLE/AUNT
an uncle/aunt of one's father or mother. In U.S. frequently seen as "great-uncle" which is equivalent. Grand uncle is the older form, and is preferred."

This is _not_ where I first or second stumbled across the issue.

Comments

[ethelmay.livejournal.com]

My family already fights over "ant" vs."awnt." I am not adding fuel to the fire by informing them of the existence of "grand-aunt" (which I have never, ever, ever heard anyone say, but that doesn't necessarily mean anything).

Merriam-Webster 11 (the standard reference for many publishers) plumps for "granduncle"/"grandaunt" as the preferred form, with "great-uncle"/"great-aunt" sending one to "granduncle"/"grandaunt." That is NOT what I would have expected (and the differing hyphenation only makes it odder -- I bet I could get challenged at Scrabble for, say, turning "daunt" into "grandaunt", despite its parallel formation to "grandmother"), but it may partially explain why some folks have decided that the "grand" form is more correct. The choice of "grand" forms for the Legacy program has also likely been a huge factor. (I have to admit I snicker at the expression "Legacy software" -- was no one thinking when they named it? It's right up there with calling a car an "Impact.")

Shall I ask on the Copyediting-L listserv? I checked the archives and there was no professional discussion thereof -- in a 2004 chat, one listmember said "grandaunt" was standard in Ireland, and one had heard it from a relative from British Columbia. It was also suggested that the usage might be influenced by French, which apparently uses "grand-oncle" and "grand-tante." (Massenet wrote an opera called "La grand'tante," which I think suggests that an earlier form may have been "grande tante," which makes more sense to me, though my French is nothing if not rudimentary.)

But I am avoiding my last-minute Christmas shopping. Must go.

hope the holidays were fun!

[walkitout]

I'd love to hear what the copyeditors have to say. I have to agree with you about the Legacy naming choice. ;-)

Re: hope the holidays were fun!

[ethelmay.livejournal.com]

I've had one answer with not only an opinion on the subject but a useful data point:

"I think it's fair to say there is no consensus among the genealogical community. It is sufficiently split that well-behaved genealogical data base programs leave the choice to the user. Here's the pertinent section of the Reunion manual (Reunion is a Mac program):

Great Aunts and Granduncles

Some people refer to the aunt of your father or mother as a "Great Aunt." Some call this person a "Grandaunt."

Likewise, some people refer to the uncle of your father or mother as a "Great Uncle." Some call this person a "Granduncle."

Reunion lets you decide how to label these people when relationships are identified. To use the terms "Grandaunt" and "Granduncle," click the button Use "Granduncle" and "Grandaunt."
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[Helen]: So far the only justification I've heard for preferring "grand-" forms for genealogy that's made any sense to me is that they then parallel the grandparent forms, and are more easily comprehensible at a glance: great-granduncle is more obviously coeval with great-grandfather than great-great-uncle is. But really, great-great-uncle is not exactly difficult for a native speaker of English to parse.

Re: hope the holidays were fun!

[walkitout]

Thanks!

I feel much better about this now. I'm okay with communities that have people with strongly held largely arbitrary opinions (I'm like that, too). But I'd worry if any community that adopted grand[uncle|aunt] as preferred over great[uncle|aunt], without allowing for a larger, surrounding culture which has never even _heard_ grand[uncle|aunt] used.

Re: hope the holidays were fun!

[ethelmay.livejournal.com]

I did have one answer saying that the "great" forms were for the great-grandparent generation. Um. No. Oh, and there are even people out there who argue for using "great-uncle" for one side of the family and "granduncle" for the other. That way madness most surely lies.

The people who are prepared to state unequivocally that there is "no such thing as a great-uncle" worry me. I will admit to having occasionally said things like "There is no such thing as crispy. The word is crisp," but I was exaggerating, dang it. I know very well that "crispy" has an ancient history. I just don't LIKE it.